[If a member is up for transcribing this statement for those other members who do not have a high-speed Internet connection, I'd be grateful if you would post it to your blog and note it in the comments here--the first to do so, I will link and credit in this entry.]
I'm skeptical with the conventional wisdom that "this has been going for hundreds of years," the "that's just the way it is" logic. I find the present situation in the Middle East to be the consequence of the dominant geopolitical agenda of the West over the twentieth century, and don't believe the old "clash of civilizations" mythology helps the situation.
Other than that, I concur completely with Dr. Paul's analysis.
I once foolishly went through an airport security checkpoint wearing a "free Palestine" tee shirt. The guy in the uniform snarled at me: "So you think Palestinians should be free?"
I told him yes, I think all people should be.
The guy tosses me my bag, still leering, says "it's been going on thousands of years."
In effect, he was saying, "just shut up and don't think about it."
The "hundreds of years" argument is never meant to be dissected and analyzed; even as Dr. Paul used it, it was in the context of "it's not our business," which while perfectly sensible as American foreign policy does not get into assessing which side is right or wrong; it just insinuates that nobody knows and it doesn't matter.
Which I disagree with. I think it does matter that it is understood which side is the aggressor.
Not to say that we should take sides. I believe that on a higher level, Israel is probably being set up to be the next scapegoat; that the U.N.'s principled record of condemning Israeli war crimes will be used following a collapse of the American economy to justify surrendering our sovereignty to the U.N.
Here's how it'll work: the central banks won't be blamed for the collapse of the economy, so it'll be blamed on "the war," i.e. the neo-cons. With that characterization, the globalist Left can paint the U.N. as voice of "reason" that opposed the war, but was unable to stop the right-wing Zionists.
Think the mass media will stand up as Zionists against the globalists? I doubt it. As Finkelstein observed, people like David Ben-Gurion, authentic Zionists, lived modestly and died for Eretz Israel. The top brass in the "Israel lobby" is interested in Israel only as a road to power. Now that the America's conservative community is in shambles and all political power flows through the Left, watch for more and more left-wing Zionists to concede that Israel is a problem state and the U.N. was right all along.
But as Ron Paul sometimes says of his economic predictions, "I hope I'm wrong."
Adam your predictions sound pretty accurate to me. I hope you didn't misunderstand what I meant though. It's not that I don't care, I do, but as you pointed out, as far as American foreign policy goes we shouldn't get or be involved. We should have more of a "silent observer" approach in my opinion. Wouldn't it be great if this nation were always the Switzerland our founders envisioned? Not saying Switzerland is perfect, just their history of neutrality, which I'm sure you're well aware of.
I think we should stay out; this is a problem between Gaza and Israel. Granted the US, EU and UN have all contributed to this mess our "help" would only make it worse now. We funneled money and guns to both sides. As for the conditions in Gaza I think the world has contributed to that just as much as Israel as well as the leadership within Gaza, that being Hamas. Considering this thing has gotten so out of hand that blame can not be place on one, such as Israel will be by the UN for their agression and Gaza by the US for lobbing rockets into Israel for an extended period of time provoking it. This is not premption by Israel and even if it was it should be none of our concern, it is the result of the meddeling of those that want power, control, money and globalization.
I think we should stay out; this is a problem between Gaza and Israel. Granted the US, EU and UN have all contributed to this mess our "help" would only make it worse now. We funneled money and guns to both sides. As for the conditions in Gaza I think the world has contributed to that just as much as Israel as well as the leadership within Gaza, that being Hamas. Considering this thing has gotten so out of hand that blame can not be place on one, such as Israel will be by the UN for their agression and Gaza by the US for lobbing rockets into Israel for an extended period of time provoking it. This is not premption by Israel and even if it was it should be none of our concern, it is the result of the meddeling of those that want power, control, money and globalization.
OK what happened?? The video was pulled by either Google or Dr Paul. I watched it once and when I went back to watch it again there was a notice that the video was no longer available.
Thank you Dr Paul for keeping us updated and informed so we can continue educating those we know as well as keeping emails flowing to the congress on what we expect of them, Constitutional government. I am beginning to wonder if they have read that document.
^Did you try refreshing the webpage David? I find that if that ever happens to me, I just refresh the page because it may be a glitch.
The problem with our Government is that they think that this country needs to always be the super hero.
Whenever a problem erupts, it always has to be America on the front lines, showing how great they are.
What people don't understand is that the more we get involved in another country's business, the more we're going to get in trouble.
If we keep giving support to Israel, countries that don't like Israel are going to hate us as well, and thus, are going to want to want to cause harm to us as well.
What we need to do is learn to stay out of the business of other countries, and let them figure things out for themselves.
And as Dr. Paul said, Israel is powerful enough to bring Gaza to it's knees.
Gaza is small, and Israel is a nuclear power for crying out loud.
Wouldn't we be considered the aggressor because Israel receives a majority of it's arms from us?
Posted 01/03/09 8:39 PM benvanderjagt Winchester, VA
Ron,
My family has had tremendous respect for you with the exception of your opinion of Israel. I want to clarify my position as well as the position of other family members who have known you since the 1980's.
My grandfather believes that we the people ought to state our approval or disapproval of the actions of other countries. He agrees that we shouldn't be stealing money from others (taxation) to give to other countries, no matter how benevolent those countries are. By that reasoning, he believes that the government can very well formalize its approval or disapproval.
My mother and I believe that the government shouldn't be formalizing approval or disapproval on the assumed behalf of the people it represents. That doesn't gain friends. It only makes enemies.
However, we as people need to be very careful of the accusations we make. It seems that you and I differ on one important point. As far as I understand it, Israel did not pre-emptively attack but retaliated. The point I keep hearing is the body count, but if I were to repeatedly warn my neighbor that I would smash him with a 20-ton boulder if he didn't stop trying to break into my house, then would I be accused of pre-emptively attacking him?
If I'm wrong about your position on the matter, or if I'm wrong about Israel's actions, I'm open to clarification. I want to be sure that you know, however, that my grandfather, mother, and I support 99.9% or more of your positions and opinions, and there is no doubt that you will keep our support, because you believe in God and the Bible, and you believe in the Constitution, and you've proven your faithfulness for decades.
people calm down, i think it's only proper for you to hear the other side.
first of all i'm a new member and i wish you all the best of luck. ron paul cured my apathy as well and got me interested in economics.
now look, you have got to lay off the "Zionists" thing for many reasons, call us Israelis as is proper.
this was not a preemptive war!- we have been bombarded by thousands of missiles for years, and a united states under ron paul would have done the same.
yes we are a lot more powerful than gaza, but you are a lot more powerful than bin-laden yet you agree that you should have gone after him following 9/11.
one thing you never hear are the tens of opportunities we gave the Palestinians to make things better for themselves. after every major war we have told all of the arab world to help them build their economy as did we. finally we evacuated every square foot of gaza, we disassembled settlements (which 90% of israelis hate), we subsidize gaza, we allow them cutting edge and free medical treatment in israel, we gave them THOUSANDS of prisoners (with blood on their hands) as a tribute etc'.
for a year we have been telling them "remember we are stronger than you, stop rocketing us or we would have no choice"- they didn't listen.
they use civilians as a human shield, they put rocket launchers in schools, and than you wonder we civilians get killed.
they teach ALL their kids from an early age a radical Muslim ideology (not economics or physics), and those who say that the same is true for us is an ignorant on a gigantic scale (except for the radical jews, which most of us don't like!).
you all talk about the asymmetry in the number of casualties- i say you need to look at real numbers. the fact that we are richer and can afford better protection doesn't mean we are acting disproportionately.
you are not taking account of the fact that every day almost 1/6 of our people and economy are shut down because of constant rocketing, the billions in property lost, the 1/6 of the economy we are loosing, the thousand of kids who are afraid to go out and play because any moment they can be blown to pieces and so on.
i can only presume you side with the Austrian school of economics (as do i)- than you of all people should understand the consequences of this unbelievable situation. what about the unseen people dying because a bad economy and a ruined life?
as far as gaza being a concentration camp- half true.
you might like to ask your leaders why they come here asking us: "how the hell did you manage to stop all of the suicide terrorism? teach us". well we did so by inspecting people coming in and out of gaza and by the wall we've built.
it amazes me- you always talk about a stronger border defense, well we have a border with gaza. you mean to tell me that if you had a border with Afghanistan you wouldn't have checked people crossing it?.
yes we can shut their electricity off when we wish, but we don't wish it all the time. we shut their electricity off when we receive a large missile attack as a response.
they do have human rights, we often arrest terrorists and treat them well (and too often give them back as a tribute) and not like in Guantanamo.
people, we did what we were asked to do, and just like every previous time- they used our gesture to acquire more weapons and suppress themselves even more.
and as far as the "free-Palestine" goes- people, since the very first moment when we founded our country- we agreed to a division of this land where we have about half the lands we have now. the Palestinians declined to conditions which would have favored them and given us zero political power, and right after the British ended their mandate here declared war. we've won the war and wanted peaceful coexistence- we didn't get it. in 73 we've beaten Egypt and Jordan in war, as part of the peace agreement we agreed to give them their lands in return for peace. the Egyptians and Jordanians agreed and we have been living peacefully ever since. well, we gave tens of opportunities like these to the Palestinians and got rockets instead.
we want to free Palestine, they want to destroy Israel.
i wish i could write more but just to finish-
i agree with you, the US should just butt out, leave us alone (unlike what you hear our military can definitely survive without the US), and make us go towards a free market economy.
but come on, get real, we could have annihilated gaza in hours had we wished, but we only target military targets (had you killed bin laden and civilians in a bombing what would you have said?).
I love Dr. Paul and agree with him on most issues. However, I must agree with the above writers comments. What Israel is doing is not along the lines of the preemptive neo-conservative war mongering policies that have been crippling America, but rather basic defense. The whole thing is incredibly tragic, but I don't know what else I could suggest that the Israeli's do
I don’t think anyone here needs any calming down…the comments so far have been civil.
Perhaps you should ask why rockets are being fired at Israel. Is Palestine trying to provoke war or are they lashing out in desperation? Confining human beings to a small area until they eventually lash out and then saying it is an unprovoked attack doesn’t make much sense. Israel knew that once the cease fire was over that the rocket attacks would continue and obviously had a battle plan on the table. The planning was preemptive – they had specific targets picked out in advance (buildings, Hamas leaders homes, etc.) and were just waiting for an excuse. Israel knows why Palestinians continue to attack them, but refuse to change their method for dealing with them which only perpetuates the problem, creating more resentment and future aggressors.
The United States under Ron Paul would not put up apartheid walls which go out of their way to cut off resources, blockade all trade, hold control over all commerce, water usage, electricity usage, put up guard towers, regulate air space and all borders including the sea. Ron Paul, and libertarian minded people in general would NOT do the same thing. We recognize sovereignty, human rights and understand the COSTS OF BLOWBACK.
Israel left Gaza in 2005 leaving the southern border (which was completely destroyed in the name of “safety” – 1600 homes destroy – yeah, that’s not going to piss anyone off). So between that and the control that Israel still holds over the daily lives of Palestinians, what can be considered opportunity? Israel let in U.N. food programs so they can eat? How about give them some of their farmland back? How about giving them a larger portion of water sources? They are allowed 1/6 of what an average Israeli citizen is allowed.
To compare the first world economy of Israel to that of Palestine is absurd. Israel has actual infrastructure, Palestine has almost nothing (not even descent road system or rail)…and Israel basically bombed Lebanon backwards taking out all modes of commerce (ports, airport, rail). Israel hasn’t allowed Palestine to grow in any sense. As long as there is a blockade and control over resources, Palestine will never move forward.
Bottom line, Israel is only perpetuating the problem. Israel and Palestine are BOTH wrong. Every time you retaliate or put Palestine in a desperate situation you only are going to add to future conflict. Every time Palestinians resort to violence, they only make their situation worse. I have to say, though – I highly doubt that Israel would tear down any walls or loosen its grip even if all Palestinian acts of aggression/desperation stopped. Both Israel and Palestine need to stop…you are screwing yourselves out of a future. You have to be really moronic to not see the pattern here. Is any of this going to make anything better for anyone? It seems that the situation will remain the same, at best.
The United States put military bases in what is considered holy land, propped up dictators and muscled economic sanctions on Muslim countries…we ended up with 9/11 and still have not learned our lesson. I can only imagine what will be the end result for Israel/Palestine/Lebanon. The Western nations really need to stop thinking themselves so virtuous and quit pissing people off.
We should have no say in this matter nor should we oppose any nation willing to step into this battle. We, as a country, are bankrupt and yet we seem to be the only ones supporting the invasion. Logic must prevail. That requires reason and understanding from those calling the shots.
Also remember that, when Gaza was turned over completely to the Palestinians, that much of the infrastructure in Gaza was looted and destroyed.
I think speaking against the Israelis is a little off base. They have been under constant rocket attacks against civilians since the ceasefire was lifted. Should they not seek out those who perpetrated the attacks? If you shoot at my house, be prepared for fire to be returned.
We should simply mind our own business on this one.
As usual, I identify and can completely understand everything you said. I agree that it seems that "preemptive wars"? are growing in popularity although I find that phrase is used just to mask people's inability to place any importance on who started it, who is crossing the line and make it seem as though they are "protecting us". I need a lot less protection from the world, we aren't five. As many have said I think that we mind our own business on this one and focus our attention on our own economic crisis. I know Dr. Paul that you foresaw this almost 2 years ago and I would be interested in hearing your opinions on a solution.
I think Dr. Paul is right and wrong; let me explain.
He is right in that we should not be involved in this conflict and that our involvement will result in repercussions for this country. The Founders/Framers wanted our country to adopt a policy of "separatism" and to not get involved in the conflicts and wars of other countries. Interpreting their writings on the role of this country in world affairs, leads us to believe they wanted us to be the "peacemakers", not the "policemen" of the world. Very unfortunately, our government does not abide by the Constitution and the aspirations of the F/F.
Dr. Paul is wrong theologically. In both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible, God directed that the Jews would re-inhabit their original homeland, that being Isreal, and that those who would stand by the side of Isreal would be in God's favor. God's Law is above all else, which was a basic and firm tenet of the F/F, and so we are bound by God to stand by the side of Isreal. Yes, our country will incur negative repercussions from many in the world community, but we must stand by Isreal because it is the Right thing to do, not because it is the most expedient.
As a country, we are faced with many, many serious problems, as Dr. Paul points out. It would seem that the focus of most people is identifying and solving these individual problems(ex. ecomonic, energy, social security, etc.). However, as important and necessary as this is, we must focus on solving the most important, singularly basic problem that plagues us: our government, along with our elected officials, must adhere to the provisions of the Constitution, and the tenets of the F/F. If this could be accomplished, we would advoid many of the types of problems we face today, in the future. How to accomplish this is another topic for another time. Be of Good Cheer...
As usual, I identify and can completely understand everything you said. I agree that it seems that "preemptive wars"? are growing in popularity although I find that phrase is used just to mask people's inability to place any importance on who started it, who is crossing the line and make it seem as though they are "protecting us". I need a lot less protection from the world, we aren't five. As many have said I think that we mind our own business on this one and focus our attention on our own economic crisis. I know Dr. Paul that you foresaw this almost 2 years ago and I would be interested in hearing your opinions on a solution.
The protection of individual liberty absolutely requires that religion and government be separate. I reject the claim that "We are bound by God to stand by Israel" as at worst, false, and at best, irrelevant. Because you believe your God requires this of you does not give you the right to impose your beliefs on me by actions of the government -- nor do I take kindly to the use of MY tax dollars for this kind of government meddling in matters of religion and faith.
Posted 01/04/09 08:24 AM year1913 Madison Heights, MI
Wish us luck, please!
My mother is going to Palestine in 2 weeks to assist with humanitarian aid! She'll be there for 3 months! I highly recommend Anna Baltzer's DVD presentation if you'd like to see more about what's happening over there:
http://www.annainthemiddleeast.com/presentations/dvd/
We need to stop funding Israel. Period.
I agree with Adam de Angeli's comments above, particularly that this has been primarily a Western-culture political agenda driven issue for almost one century and it's of course financed primarily through inflation and borrowing (which is why I believe in End The Fed!). The trend towards Western-culture controlled expansionism and globalism launched off in 1913. That's what happens when you let privately-owned central banks hold a monopoly position on the issuance of a nations currency for much of 95 years. You get debt, expansionism and war.
My understanding based on the research I've done, is that Israel is extremely oppressive to their neighbors and that's driving some in Palestine to become involved with Islamic extremist terrorist organizations such as Hamas (shouldn't be surprising). I don't believe for a minute these are religious battles. Further, Hamas is doing themselves a dis-service by bringing religion into these battles that are really more about defending the basic human rights of the Palestinian people, and all people for that matter.
Posted 01/04/09 08:25 AM Riddickerr Naleczow, Poland
Hi. Can someone please tell me, what exactly is dr Ron Paul saying in 2:33 - "The Middle East is ..." ?
If our government already knew of plans of this invasion, and is an arms dealer to Israeli government the United States (the government not the people) is very much involved, and the people of the middle east are more than likely well aware of this, and as Dr. Ron Paul said it's very important for people to pay close attention because this conflict crisis could be a easy opportunity for special interest groups that seem to swing the governments actions to take advantage especially with ways to point fingers at Iran.
2:33- The Middle East is a powderkeg, and, unfortunately, nobody sees an easy way out of the ... crisis...
3:05- As this whole area blows up, where are we even going to get the funds to keep this militarism going?
Posted 01/04/09 08:47 AM Riddickerr Naleczow, Poland
@Haystacks Calhoun
Thank you very much. I really have had no idea about this word "powder keg". Thanks. :)
Posted 01/04/09 08:48 AM redshirt Philadelphia, PA
I like having the post from the non-US Israeli libertarian. It's good to have a real close up perspective.
I think if I lived in Israel and people were shooting rockets at me and killing people and disrupting life, I'd retaliate big time. Especially if I would anticipate the rockets would continue irregardless of economic, land, and resource concessions I could make to the enemy.
My point, if Israel made all of the concessions so many wants them to make, would the rockets stop coming? I'd bet they would not... the enemy does not recognize their basic rights to property and prosperity.
So, I think fear is in play now. Bigger weapons are on the horizon, there has been no lessening of aggression and logic leads the militarily minded to work out an immediate military solution. The politically minded may be thinking a hard line might force key middle east countries to work out deals that isolate Iran further. Meanwhile Iran is coming up on election and there is a reasonable chance their hard liner will be out. Then maybe a deal could be worked to eliminate the flow of escalating weaponry and a more peaceful long lasting resolution could evolve.
As for US involvement, our government simply does not have the constitutional right to provide arms and money. It's as simple as that. Nor should it have the right.
Posted 01/04/09 09:04 AM year1913 Madison Heights, MI
In an earlier post I recommended Anna Baltzer's presentation and here's a short YouTube sample of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtRLtm507tQ
However, there is one thing that I am a stickler for and that is correct terminology, correct terms. As Ayn Rand mandated, "Define Your Terms!"
Throughout the latter part of his message, Ron kept referring to "money." I want to point out that TECHNICALLY he was talking about "money-substitutes," NOT MONEY!
*******************************
For about 5,000 years money has been "A specified weight of precious metals."
Money is NOT "what the government says it is."
Money is what "the market-place" says it is.
Politicians have used money-substitutes as currency in place of real money by enacting "Legal-Tender Statutes."
By using money-substitutes as currency in place of real money, politicians and their backers are able clandestinely to steal from the "sheeple" with the so-called "unseen tax of inflation."
"Sheeple" are afraid to demand real money because (1) they do not know what real money is, and also (2) they are afraid of "breaking the law."
Legal Tender ain't a "LAW." It's a STATUTE.
A law is an unbreakable rule of nature. A statute is a whimsical rule enacted by a legislature (usually in actual violation of the underlying rule of nature.) That's why there is so much "bad legislation" on the books!
Everyone should read Dr.Murray N. Rothbard's "What Has Government Done To Our Money?"
Then everyone would understand that money is metal.
Rothbard's book is readily available at
URL: http://www.mises.org in the bookstore.
Read it! In order to intelligently debate this most important subject, you must be equipped with correct information. That "dope" that you get from the MSM (Main-Stream Media,) pundits, so-called economists, and others is totally inaccurate.
The world is filled with the US Government's money-substitute currency, FRNs (Federal Reserve Notes,) and that is the cause of this terrible financial crisis.
If the "sheeple," by means of the market-place, would take back their real money, bankers and politicians would not be able to swindle them on such a regular and massive basis.
Gold, silver (and other precious-metal) bullion and coins are the only true money. If you don't have any now, you are going to wish you had in a couple of years.
No matter how hard the politicians try, THEY CANNOT DEFEAT THE MARKET! Unfortunately, we the "sheeple" must suffer the consequences of their idiotic, unpatriotic thuggery.
Dr. Ron Paul, you should know better! Please stop calling the US money-substitute currency "money."
FRNs are nothing more than promises to pay, promissory notes. But the catch is: What is the payment that you will receive for FRNs, real money? No, that's "illegal."
No, the payment that you are promised is MORE FRNs. And what are FRNs? They are promises to pay, printed on fancy paper. Nothing less, nothing more.
FRNs will continue to have actual purchasing power only so long as the "sheeple" actually believe they have purchasing power.
When the "sheeple" discover reality, the entire house of cards will come tumbling down. I can hear the rumblings now!
Use Wikipedia to learn what happened in Germany around 1921 when they had their "hyperinflation."
It took wheelbarrow-loads of government's paper, promissory notes, to buy a single loaf of bread.
I suspect that we are headed down that path. The world is flooded with FRNs. What else can we expect?
Israel may have launched the first strike in 1967, but it was not unprovoked. Egypt had amassed 1,000 tanks and nearly 100,000 soldiers on the border. They had also closed the Straits of Tiran to all ships flying Israeli flags. According to Dr. Paul, if America interferes with the shipping going into or out of Iran, that in and of itself is an act of war. By all logic then, restricting Israel's shipping in 1967 was an act of war.
Dr. Paul is correct. We need to stop funding and interfering in this conflict. Israel has a right to protect Her citizens, and our "picking sides" as a nation only makes matters worse. As individuals we are free to support what we wish, but as a nation, we need to mind our own business.
Posted 01/04/09 10:39 AM PerfektMSC Fort Monroe, VA
I don't believe Israel's attack on Gaza was pre-emptive. Israel is finally reacting the the thousands of rockets than Hamas has launched into Israel the last many years.
It is fine for Dr. Paul, who is an avowed pacifist, to condemn Israel for their military action, but it is not right to call their action pre-emptive.
Even Dr. Paul knows that every country has the right to defend itself, with or without the US's approval. As a group of proud non-interventionists, we in the Campaign for Liberty should understand that countries have a right to defend their citizens without asking for permission from anyone. Dr. Paul is right when he says the US should not take sides in the issue. However, if Dr. Paul is for peace--which I believe he is--he shouldn't point blame at solely the Israelis. The Hamas Party, by launching missiles into Israel and repeatedly violating their own cease fire agreements, have provoked these attacks. Both Israel and Palestine should be condemned for their actions.
I agree completely with Dr. Paul's commentary on our current economic situation. Unfortantely, this message--right after the holiday season--was full of gloom and doom. It was frighteningly uninspiring. I've listened to Dr. Paul many, many times and he usually ends his messages with a word of hope, perserverance, and instruction on how we can change our situation. This message was almost a resignation of our cause.
Here's to a new year, a renewed sense of purpose, a revitalized spirit: To Liberty! To Freedom! To Prosperity! To Peace!
Posted 01/04/09 11:16 AM year1913 Madison Heights, MI
I hope to see more discussion about first pursuing an understanding of the ROOT CAUSES that led to why it truly occurred in the first place, viewing it from a much larger perspective... then we can pursue solutions and a course of ACTION.
ROOT CAUSE:
Using American tax dollars.. the Israeli Government is very oppressive to the common Palestinian people. The Zionist movement is behind it and we Americans are the primary financiers. It is true that Hamas provoked this particular battle and it is true they're not helping the cause of the Palestinian people by bringing religion into the chaos when religion has nothing to do with it in the first place.
The root issue is violation of basic human rights by occupation and oppression upon the Palestinian people.
Leadership on both sides are wrong, and generally, the common people on both sides are for peace and friendship.
SOLUTION: Cut the money supply to Israeli Government from American taxpayers and a whole lot will change. We MUST ACT and let people know this is the best way to solve the problem. I honestly believe that financiers for Hamas will turn their resources elsewhere if America leads the way and cuts financing to Israel first.
Doctor Paul has endorsed Christian Just War Theory according to which proportionality of response and the avoidance of civilian casualties are both criteria. These criteria are rejected by Israeli policy and neocon propagandists like Charles Krauthammer, Kristol, et al.
A few facts: Gaza was put under a starvation blockade for three years (an act of war) since its democratically elected government was installed, the first Israeli casualty from the rockets occurred after the bombardment began, Israel violated the truce last November with an airstrike than killed nine Palestinians.
Palestinians seem to be the only people in the world who have no right to life, liberty, and property.
There is a solution: One decentralized state for both Israelis and Palestinians under the rule of law that will ensure equal rights for all, the end of a state based on ethnic/religious exclusivity and priviledge, and the end of American involvement and "codependency" with Israel.
I agree with PerfektMSC, this was not a preemptive strike.
But anyway, what's this idea that if you act "preemptively", you are somehow automatically at fault. I think that is a very naive notion. According to that philosophy, I have to wait until someone blows me up first! It's absurd!
Also, many here are advocating for not taking sides, but then go on to criticize mostly Israel.
It is "statism" that leads to these conflicts. So all parties are guilty. But the idea that Israel is somehow more at fault here and that the Palestinians and there supporters are somehow innocent people just looking to get along with everyone is quite absurd and naive.
And please, the "youtube" propaganda videos tactic is quite insulting. How about you look up some communist and socialist propaganda films about how evil "capitalism" has caused all the poverty in the world.
I, too, believe Israel's retaliation is due to countless acts of true terrorism against them since their inception as a modern nation in 1948. We must support Israel defening themselves. Unfortunately, we have put constant pressures on Israel to give away land without any conditions, and we were proponent of Israel forcefully removing their own citizens from their homes when Israel pulled out of Gaza a few years ago. It is not promoting freedom when we endorse the forced removal of our own citizenry from their property. I also believe we need to stop manipulating the Middle East--including Israel--with our "so called" wealth. I'm a financial analyst and I concure with Dr. Paul comments on the U.S. economy. We don't have the money to give to other nations, let alone manipulate them. Israel can take care of themselves. Let's let them defend their land. We also need to pull back our soldiers from the Middle East in general. If we are going to spend money on our economy, why don't we just use what we are spending on the Middle East first.
Posted 01/04/09 1:45 PM BruceKoerber Cedar Rapids, IA
The situation in Israel, in the Gaza, is like a grenade. The explosives inside the grenade are the racial and religious and political prejudices. The shrapnel encasing these explosives is the false wealth that comes from the dollar as the world reserve currency. The pin is the imperialism of the unConstitutional coup with its ambitions of worldwide monetary hegemony.
Who is the terrorist that pulls the pin? The ego-driven interventionist relying on ego-driven interpretation who serves the interests of the unConstitutional coup! That describes any of a number of criminals - the warmongerers directing the imperialistic expansion of militarism, the puppet leaders (Presidents and/or Prime Ministers) who are indebted to the unConstitutional coup, the members of Parlimentary bodies with personal political ambitions, etc.
Peace without interventionism, without fiat currencies, without the ego-driven politicians is the standard to use to critique what is going on in the world. In other words, classical liberalism is the standard.
Okay, I gotta admit, I'm pretty infuriated right now. I'm a strong libertarian, and Ron Paul's easily one of my historically favorite political figures, and thankfully (since its nice to actually be represented by a public official in the Federal Government) Dr. Paul and I agree on policy matters: its not our business, no entangling alliances.
Note: I am half-Israeli, and half my family (and that's the American half of my family) is in Israel, so I'd be lying if I didn't point out that I have personal entanglements here.
Israel is far more powerful than the Palestine's government, yes. However, to echo a previous post here: the USFG is far more powerful than Al-Qaeda, but that doesn't take away the justification of the War in Afghanistan (and the far more disproportionate damage in Afghanistan; I'm not justifying Iraq).
Israel, for the majority of their history, was the underdog against their Arab neighbors from the beginning (and if you think Israel as a state is illegitimate, don't forget Jerusalem has always had a Jewish majority, and Tel Aviv was an uninhabited, unnamed, worthless desert before Jewish European settlers arrived). The Palestinian territories themselves may be small, but they're just the remainder from wars of aggression that were waged against Israel (and the countries Israel beat in the six-day war (1967), to get Gaza and the West Bank, don't want the land back; hence the modern movement for a Palestinian state (the flag you see waving was created after '67, if you want further proof).
I honestly don't know the history of what Israel's first long-term plans were once it was the case that Gaza and the West Bank weren't going back to their prior "owners" (though Israel tried to trade them back for peace, as they did with Egypt over the Sinai; again, no one wanted Gaza and the West Bank). Whatever the case, Israel (without American pressure, this was radical moves by Israeli statesmen, but with American support; interpret that however you wish) finally helped establish a provisional government for the territories: the PLO.
That's a huge motherf*cking concession. Wanna know why? Because the Palestine Liberation Organization, started by Yassir Arafat, was a terrorist organization. They weren't, and this is indisputable (up until the point at which they became the provisional government), interested in coexistence, they were interested in destroying Israel. Period. Arafat was Israel's bin Laden, literally, and he was now being delegated authority by the State of Israel. That's a major concession.
What happened? Well, things were peaceful for a while (well, a few suicide bombings a year at times; that's peace in Israel), and then the Intifada happens. There's no clear evidence as far as Arafat's involvement in instigating the violence, but he sure as hell failed at enforcing the law, because he wouldn't stop the three terrorist organizations from sending suicide bombers.
So what did Israel do? They built what you guys like to call an "apartheid wall." What you call an "apartheid wall" curbed suicide bombings by over 90 percent. What you call an "apartheid wall" saved hundreds of Israelis who would've been murdered in night clubs or restaurants. The only extent to which this was apartheid was economic, and that's only because 1. Israel let Palestinians work in Israel (they still were allowed to do this, but 2-hour checkpoints made it practically impossible) and 2. the Palestinian Authority (the renamed PLO) did nothing to help economic development (okay, that's hearsay; I'm not sure what they did or didn't do or should've done. But either way, its ridiculous for a piece of land to not economically support itself. I know economics, I'm not saying there shouldn't be trade across borders, but there shouldn't be complete economic devastation without it.)
That Israel's fence around the West Bank is argued against the way it is is pure ignorance, and it makes me ashamed to be on this forum. It's complete, unconscionable ignorance.
And what did Israel do a few years ago (I don't know exactly when)? They repeated when they granted the PLO governmental authority. They allowed Hamas, which produced more suicide bombers than either of the other two terrorist groups, to form a political party and run for elections. Would you make a deal with al-Qaeda so that they could form a party in the Afghani government? Or the Taliban (I recognize the analogy doesn't perfectly translate)? I didn't think so.
And what happened since? Rocketfire from the Palestinian territories into Israel. So you'd have Israel do what? Attack only military targets? What the hell do you think they're doing? When their enemy is a government whose entire history is terrorism (aiming at innocents, CLEARLY.), and that terrorism involves sacrifice of 20 year olds who think their death is worth the death of Israeli 20 year olds, they don't have many moral reservations when it comes to hiding behind civilians, and this has been well-documented for years.
So what should Israel do to stop the rockets firing into Israel (thankfully not the more destructive suicide bombings, prevented by the "apartheid wall")? Withdraw? Again, Hamas's historical mission statement has been the destruction of the State of Israel, perfectly in line with each of the Arab neighbors who DO have air forces, and tanks, and missiles, and who have attempted to destroy Israel the "conventional" way since the day Israel was formed. For Israel to simply withdraw, while those terrorist organizations are still attacking Israel, is to ask those terrorists to turn to those destructive, "conventional" means.
I'm not even sure how to finish this post. This is infuriating. Israel hasn't been perfect, and neither have we. But the State of Israel's obligation is still, and always will be, the defend the State of Israel, and what Israel is doing is, unfortunately, the only way it can.
Can someone please explain to me why Dr. Paul has called this a preemptive war??? I don't like Israel, I wish we would cut all ties with them but I want to know the logic behind him calling this a preemptive war. . .
Okay, I gotta admit, I'm pretty infuriated right now. I'm a strong libertarian, and Ron Paul's easily one of my historically favorite political figures, and thankfully (since its nice to actually be represented by a public official in the Federal Government) Dr. Paul and I agree on policy matters: its not our business, no entangling alliances.
Note: I am half-Israeli, and half my family (and that's the American half of my family) is in Israel, so I'd be lying if I didn't point out that I have personal entanglements here.
Israel is far more powerful than the Palestine's government, yes. However, to echo a previous post here: the USFG is far more powerful than Al-Qaeda, but that doesn't take away the justification of the War in Afghanistan (and the far more disproportionate damage in Afghanistan; I'm not justifying Iraq).
Israel, for the majority of their history, was the underdog against their Arab neighbors from the beginning (and if you think Israel as a state is illegitimate, don't forget Jerusalem has always had a Jewish majority, and Tel Aviv was an uninhabited, unnamed, worthless desert before Jewish European settlers arrived). The Palestinian territories themselves may be small, but they're just the remainder from wars of aggression that were waged against Israel (and the countries Israel beat in the six-day war (1967), to get Gaza and the West Bank, don't want the land back; hence the modern movement for a Palestinian state (the flag you see waving was created after '67, if you want further proof).
I honestly don't know the history of what Israel's first long-term plans were once it was the case that Gaza and the West Bank weren't going back to their prior "owners" (though Israel tried to trade them back for peace, as they did with Egypt over the Sinai; again, no one wanted Gaza and the West Bank). Whatever the case, Israel (without American pressure, this was radical moves by Israeli statesmen, but with American support; interpret that however you wish) finally helped establish a provisional government for the territories: the PLO.
That's a huge motherf*cking concession. Wanna know why? Because the Palestine Liberation Organization, started by Yassir Arafat, was a terrorist organization. They weren't, and this is indisputable (up until the point at which they became the provisional government), interested in coexistence, they were interested in destroying Israel. Period. Arafat was Israel's bin Laden, literally, and he was now being delegated authority by the State of Israel. That's a major concession.
What happened? Well, things were peaceful for a while (well, a few suicide bombings a year at times; that's peace in Israel), and then the Intifada happens. There's no clear evidence as far as Arafat's involvement in instigating the violence, but he sure as hell failed at enforcing the law, because he wouldn't stop the three terrorist organizations from sending suicide bombers.
So what did Israel do? They built what you guys like to call an "apartheid wall." What you call an "apartheid wall" curbed suicide bombings by over 90 percent. What you call an "apartheid wall" saved hundreds of Israelis who would've been murdered in night clubs or restaurants. The only extent to which this was apartheid was economic, and that's only because 1. Israel let Palestinians work in Israel (they still were allowed to do this, but 2-hour checkpoints made it practically impossible) and 2. the Palestinian Authority (the renamed PLO) did nothing to help economic development (okay, that's hearsay; I'm not sure what they did or didn't do or should've done. But either way, its ridiculous for a piece of land to not economically support itself. I know economics, I'm not saying there shouldn't be trade across borders, but there shouldn't be complete economic devastation without it.)
That Israel's fence around the West Bank is argued against the way it is is pure ignorance, and it makes me ashamed to be on this forum. It's complete, unconscionable ignorance.
And what did Israel do a few years ago (I don't know exactly when)? They repeated when they granted the PLO governmental authority. They allowed Hamas, which produced more suicide bombers than either of the other two terrorist groups, to form a political party and run for elections. Would you make a deal with al-Qaeda so that they could form a party in the Afghani government? Or the Taliban (I recognize the analogy doesn't perfectly translate)? I didn't think so.
And what happened since? Rocketfire from the Palestinian territories into Israel. So you'd have Israel do what? Attack only military targets? What the hell do you think they're doing? When their enemy is a government whose entire history is terrorism (aiming at innocents, CLEARLY.), and that terrorism involves sacrifice of 20 year olds who think their death is worth the death of Israeli 20 year olds, they don't have many moral reservations when it comes to hiding behind civilians, and this has been well-documented for years.
So what should Israel do to stop the rockets firing into Israel (thankfully not the more destructive suicide bombings, prevented by the "apartheid wall")? Withdraw? Again, Hamas's historical mission statement has been the destruction of the State of Israel, perfectly in line with each of the Arab neighbors who DO have air forces, and tanks, and missiles, and who have attempted to destroy Israel the "conventional" way since the day Israel was formed. For Israel to simply withdraw, while those terrorist organizations are still attacking Israel, is to ask those terrorists to turn to those destructive, "conventional" means.
I'm not even sure how to finish this post. This is infuriating. Israel hasn't been perfect, and neither have we. But the State of Israel's obligation is still, and always will be, the defend the State of Israel, and what Israel is doing is, unfortunately, the only way it can.
yeah, Oreich, the only way Israel can defend itself is by starving a massive group of people and then bombing the crap out of them when they fire rockets in protest/desperation...reducing the argument to a classic "we had no choice" shows complete moral ambiguity. Israel has been creating a fighting dog...you cage, starve and prod the dog and it gets real mean. Israel's plan is to create so much suffering that the Palestinians abandoned Hamas (their elected leaders). Saying "see Hamas is the one doing this to you - not Israel - we have no choice". All that will come of it is further endangerment of the Israeli population as these actions will create more hatred and additional desperate acts. This is no one to secure security for the Israeli people. Also, there was only one suicide bombing before the wall went up beyond road-block checkpoints. The wall is no more than a giant land grab – Palestine already agreed to give up 78% of its land according the Palestinian Mandate (British) but Israel decided to annex even more by way of settlements and the wall.
Reading for everyone else:
Myth of Israel concessions -
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113
Western Media: what we’re not allowed to hear -
http://www.creators.com/opinion/paul-craig-roberts.html
Video from Gaza 1/3/09 (civilians killed including children) -
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Leaked_graphic_video_shows_carnage_in_0104.html
Comparing current damage in Gaza and Israel photos -
http://palestinian.ning.com/forum/topics/the-other-side-of-the-story
This is one area where I STRONGLY disagree with Dr. Paul. I'm not going to go through a history or current events lesson, but...
To call what Israel is doing a "preemptive strike" IS taking sides!
We (the U.S.) just need to stay out of it. There is a constant pressure to compel us take sides, but there is little pressure to compel us to do nothing concerning issues which are beyond our capability and authority. The sooner we learn to accept that, the better.
The thoughtful, rational and objective members of CfL are glad to see you go. Minds, such as yours, no longer willing to inquire are going to be the destroyers of the West...not "muslim jihadists". Peace.
-TB
Posted 01/04/09 5:32 PM Commander Yo Fort Collins , CO
Lots of interesting comments. I am glad to see many posts disagreeing with Dr. Paul. I as well deeply disagree with Dr. Paul here. Israel has every right to defend itself and he is very out of touch if he thinks this is preemptive. I am not sure who he thinks Hamas is? Hamas are certainly not choir boys. Hamas preaches hate and teaches children to hate and kill by terror. Strapping bombs to themselves laced with nails and blowing the hole thing up in the presence of others.
Hamas and Hezbolla are destabilizing Lebanon. These groups loft bombs into israel by the hundreds and then go pouting to the world media when Israel says enough...I think these killers love it when their own die so they can capture the media and use the dead bodies as PR...
The point that should be made is that the creation of israel led by foreign declarations in support of Zionism are fundamentally what we are talking about when we discuss non-inteventaionalism as leading to conflict! If Jews wanted to return from the diaspora to Palestine they should have done it on there own terms as individuals, not as state sponsored/endorsed migration.
Dr. Paul is rambling here as well, Dr. Paul should stick to topic, the Gaza invasion. Dr. Paul missed a truly great opportunity to educate people about the historical context of Zionism and how a philosophy of noninteventionalism would have mitigated the current crisis.
I agree with what Dr. Paul has to say here... Everyone who reads this please go to msnbcs www.newsvine.com and setup accounts there..the people who post on that site scare me and they seem to be in large numbers and it is a good place to help progress the ideas that the campaign for liberty is all about!!!....don't mean to plug that site really I just can't stand all the people who were commenting about the Gaza situation and all the Israeli propaganda that's on there let's organize and try to take back these sites
I have seen this coming for a week, and it is very disheartening. There is no faster way to render ourselves irrelevant than to debate a topic which holds no bearing on what we are fighting for. Our goal is to return this country to it's Constitutional roots, that of non-intervention, sound money, a free-market economy and individual rights. While most of us have our own opinions on the situation between Israel and the Palestinian people, those opinions matter not to our purpose. We should not, as a nation, intervene.
Of all the hot button issues out there, this is one with a GREAT deal of passion. Most people have formed an opinion which causes them to draw a line in the sand which, if it is crossed, there is no reconciliation. Our cause is FAR too important to allow differences of opinion on a subject such as this to fracture us. Name calling and link posting wars will do nothing to bring the two sides together. For as many links as one side offers, there are equally as many that the other side can offer.
I am begging the membership here, all of whom I consider to be extremely important to winning our freedoms back, regardless of your opinions on hot button issues, to please understand that any one of us that gets so offended that we leave, takes away the potential for possibly hundreds of others being recruited. We can not afford to lose momentum over THIS subject, of which, the two sides will never see eye to eye.
Perhaps I am being melodramatic; that's been known to happen before. But I see no good coming as a result of these threads. If we all agree that America has no business funding either side, or issuing statements of condemnation or approval, shouldn't that be a compromise that we can all live with?
Posted 01/04/09 6:18 PM Commander Yo Fort Collins , CO
Heather! Here here! Great post! Our goal is not to solve the palestine/israeli issue, it is to restore the Constitution, our Liberties and the Republic.
Yes, Heather. Hear, Hear. (Sorry Yo.) I wish all unconstitutional foreign aid would cease in favor of voluntary work. And, I agree with Dr. Paul about the unending problems in the area. (Sorry Adam.) The differences run very deep. And, I disagree with those who are vested in Israel from a Biblical point of view, but that is another discussion. And for those who don't want to be identified as Zionists then I presume you do not think Israel was refounded based on that belief even though history seems to contradict you. All in all quite a mess. I wish the Israelites had bought Baja and decided to settle there. We would have gotten a great resort out of it. I might even have immigrated.
To argue and divide over his subject is ridiculous. I think all of us agree on non-intervention and minding our own business at home and abroad. Why is this normally reasonable and thinking group so emotional over a group of people that our government has been funding for decades (both sides) and has been at each others throats for hundreds of years.
It will not end until we stop funding each side and allow them to go broke. The only thing that is continuing this is our meddling in their policies.
Let them take care of themselves, we have much bigger fish to fry at home, and if we can't do that, we will all have much bigger issues to deal with than they do.
Keep your eyes on the prize, quit focusing on the "shiny object" that the MSM and our government keep trying to get you to look at to divert your efforts and attention, and to divide us.
Why give them up our momentum over this BS we all fundamentally agree on? I personally don't care who is to blame for this, but I do know that if we pulled our funding, they both would have to figure out a more peaceful solution, or kill each other with stones instead of tanks and rockets. And as far as I am concerned, they are more than welcome to do that all they want, it's their right.
Posted 01/04/09 8:04 PM mookrit Melbourne, Australia
It's not just Hamas that preaches hate. The American Government has also been doing things equally as bad as the worst terrorist group. Look up the history of the Central Intelligence Agency and you'll find that it's responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people.
By the way, anyone feel like backing me up in an <a href="http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2008/12/30/israel-hamas-war/#comment-586 55">online debate</a> with some libertarian warmongers?
Posted 01/04/09 8:05 PM mookrit Melbourne, Australia
Oops, I meant to say anyone feel like backing me up in a debate with some libertarian warmongers?
I was a precinct leader in my town and have been actively reading and discerning information here, and believe it is an excellent gathering place for liberty-minded people to bounce ideas off each other.
I, like Heather, am also calling for unity, not out of socialistic drives, but for the cause we all figuratively "signed up" to promote. Israel is, undoubtedly, bombing (with complete support from American Academia, and increasingly religious institutions) the crap out of "Hamas" or whatever you want to call the underdog. War is not a spectator sport, but "analysis without observation," as some historic person I can't recall said, is impossible, and we must forgive Dr. Paul's folly in delegating blame.
What is clear, however, is that we are funding something which we have no reason to fund. WE ARE BROKE! With the C4L now being a "lobbying" organization instead of, of course, the great political campaign we rallied behind, we need to re-ground our individual ideals and orient them to 1776. We don't have the capital of non-intellectual lobbyists - I'm not old school, or taking this into the metaphysical, I'm simply saying we should be continuing what the Founding Fathers started. Read your Declaration of Independence carefully, and you will start to sense Obama's craftiness in how he has twisted the Rule of Law while rendering American Citizens useless to challenge his unconstitutional, unlawful, unqualified status as President-Elect.
I would agree that Americans should remain silent if their tax dollars were not financing the Israeli incursion, but since we are, in some ways financing this violence, perhaps it is time to raise our voices.
This article says out of 460 deaths, 4 were Israelis.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090103/pl_afp/mideastconflictgazausob ama
Gaza is a wasteland - unemployment is estimated to be as high as 80%. What would you do if you were unemployed and your country was occupied by soldiers? I might launch rockets. People will behave (perhaps) irrationally when they are unable to provide the basic necessities for their families.
Israeli and Palistinean women protest the war together:
Obviously we must have some posters on here with both Arab and Jewish cultural influences consciously/sub-consciously motivating their emotion based posts. LOL! If that is the basis for taking sides, well then, my Anglo-Saxon heritage influences me to say “stay out of this affair”. After all, I probably had ancestors who supported and fought with Richard The Lion Harted in the holy crusades, but as Ron Paul states blow-back is what you get, and historically that may have had something to do with motivating the Turkish-Ottoman Empire’s conquest into Europe; maybe even motivating them today? who knows! In any case, I hate to see any of the members in here fight over this. I don’t live in medieval England anymore and I don’t assume any of you live in Israel or Arab Nations. Everyone in here lives in the USA, right? That’s why you come in here, right? If so, let’s work to put the USA first and stay out of this affair. Here is Ron Paul’s take:
“I follow a policy called nonintervention, which was the policy of the Founding Fathers, and really what's in our Constitution. We don't have authority to be the policemen of the world and get involved in other places, and the strong advice was stay out of the internal affairs of others and stay out of entangling alliances. So I don't want to be involved any place. I would bring troops home. And besides, we're going broke. We can't afford them. So not only would I disengage in the Middle East, it would be Europe, Japan, as well as Korea”
I agree Dr. Paul, whatever we need to do to make that happen I am all for it!
wow, most you guys are just what i expected you to be, incredibly intelligent, i knew i did the right thing by becoming a member. seriously, you guys are great :)
look, i'm now studying at the israeli institute of technology, so i just don't have the time to "retaliate" to all of our antagonists, but i will say this.
our propoganda system (we have a better word in hebrew for it, propoganda conjures up the soviet union, i mean a system that explains our side of an issue) is something everybody here talk about. you probably saw the unbelievable propoganda by all the arab nations intended to hit your feeling such as people pretending to be dead when filmed an kids forced to explain the ideology the reporters and so on. our propoganda system is basicly non-existent, and so you rarely hear our side of the story, you almost never see the hundreds of thousands of kids PISSING ON THEMSELVES, their families having to afford a psychologist, afraid of missiles. i can go on and on, you have to live here to understand.
I DON'T AGREE WITH MOST OF THE STUFF OUR GOVERNMENT DOES! but let me tell you some things-a lot of people think that we are like the united states. the roots of your economy are the free market, our is socialism. we don't have a strong economy but when we did have a little freer market for a few years we exploded financially. that means that if you want to make us stronger you need to stop subsidizing us and make us go to a freer system because there are a lot of people interested in investing here. but you make it seem as though we can just fight whenever we like, like the US. our economy is much weaker.
but!- technologically we are very prolific (invented the uzi, the best tank in the world, the best assault rifle in the world, the best intelligence in the world, the best aircraft technology in the world, the arrow missile that can protect us from a nuclear assault and that your government bought etc').
a lot of your technology comes from us and a lot of our support comes from you. but you only give us about 10% of our military budget. i know a lot of people in the military, believe me we can survive without you financing us.
but come on, our military is our military and not yours, and we can stand on our own two feet. if you want to do something good than stop giving us money and 3 times as much to our enemies.
the best thing you can do is BUTT OUT of our sovereign affairs.
i talk to military people, it isn't true that our military is basically a branch of yours but it is true that you hold us back.
for years you prevented us from bombing the iraqi nuclear plant, only to find afterwards that it had we not done that they would have gained it and used it on the kurds.
for years you prevented us from bombing the syrian nuclear plant that had we not bombed would have produced a nuclear bomb with in a matter of months.
we can't do anything without you permission, we can't talk to anybody, make agreements that fit our interests, we have to let prisoners go at your will, we could have taken care of iran quickly a long while ago, we could have talked to the syrians a long while ago, we could have done things differently in gaza had bush not insist to have elections there with the full knowledge hamas was terrorizing people there and so on.
by the way, even before the current situation, people who think hamas is a nice and benevolent government is fooling themselves and others. i know people who have been there, you never hear about the constant killing there, the constant terrorizing by hamas of it's own people. the cause of their economic stagnation is not us but hamas and before that arafat.
we have proven time and time again that we can get the job done a lot better than you. look at your recent wars and our military operations, it took us one day to neutralize a threat from syria and it took us one day to prevent iraq from being a nuclear power.
that's because our objective is survival, we get the job done and come home. your objectives are usually dominance.
in summation- leave us alone!, i don't have the time to lay out all our side but it would be beneficial for all if you BUTT OUT. your intentions are good but good intentions will not solve our problems. we know what's best for us without you telling us, and we can take care of ourselves.
by the way, the reason our operation now is so extensive is because you prevented us from engaging them sooner, and consequentially people here had to die and suffer and have their economy ruined and their social life in ruins.
and one finale thing- i can't take it with all of you people calling us zionists.
"the zionist media", "the zionist agenda", "the zionist movement", it sounds incredibly paranoid, and those who think we set your policy rather than the other way around are fooling themselves.
we are not zionists, we are israeli, and i'm not religious and have no feelings towards Jerusalem as do most people here (i hope you're not getting the impression through your media that we are a bunch of religious fanatics here).
now, it is true that a major part of aggression towards you is occupation (even though i don't think you acknowledge the big part islam plays into it). however- you can pull out!, we can't.
i don't have time to go into our history but i will say this- i really don't care about the "holy land" and would prefer living in the US (a nation who's principles i'm in love with, and because i have family there including texas), but we're here.
for years we have had a plan ready and there is a clear outline of the borders of the two states (and we already started implementing our part by disassembling settlements, giving control of the territories to arab authorities and so on). the problem is that every time we agree on something the palestinian government backs off and returns to rocketing us while promising to conquer all of israel. people saying that the violence is because of us are on shaky grounds.
i'm not saying we are angels, but i do want to say that it's incredibly heart warming to hear reasonable people who have their amazing country's interest first but understand our side.
GO USA!, i hope you bring back the republic!.
you are just know finding our what a true democracy is, do everything you can to bring the republic back. i know true democracy and it equals socialism, believe me.
Posted 01/05/09 12:04 AM Matt875 Monroe Township, NJ
The Palestinians shot 4 rockets into an Israeli farm killing NOONE. Keep in mind Israel was building settlements in the Palestinian land not long before the rocket attacks. The Israelis have killed over 415 people now in their air strikes and attacks on Gaza and West Bank(This does not include the Palestinians who may have died in any settlement activity within the Palestinian land) for those 4 rockets. In response to the the Israeli air strikes and attack on Gaza more rockets have been shot into Israel killing a total of 4 Israelis. So we have a death count of 415+ to 4. The Palestinians dont have a chance in hell because of the weapons WE gave Israel.Not to mention Israel constantly has Lebanon under occupation along with the Palestinian lands. If one looked into the history of Israel they would also note that Israel funded Hamas in hopes they would overthrow the Palestinian Authority(A leadership that was elected to power by the Palestinian people). Hamas is now a thorn in Israel's side. I suggest everyone watch Ron Paul's video commenting on Gaza. I also would like to add Americans were not called "Terrorists" when we attacked the British homes in their settlements here in America. Americans were not called "Terrorists" when we hid and shot at British forces occupying our land. I also would like to add civilians were killed by US when we attacked several British settlements. Our biased media does not report what is really going on in the Palestinian lands and it is NOT RIGHT. I think Israel has the right to exist but youd think theyd learn from our(USA) mistakes in regards to Iraq. This cannot be good for the Israeli economy.
Posted 01/05/09 12:09 AM Matt875 Monroe Township, NJ
In conclusion, I believe the American people were right to fight the British occupation and I believe the Palestinians feel the same way(we did) when fighting against the Israeli occupation.
Israeli, you're preaching to the choir. Get the powers in Israel to tell Obama to BUTT OUT! Then get your pac out of town. There is nothing C4L guys would like better. I am pretty familiar with your history and your progress through the Crown, the League of Nations and the United Nations. Maybe Zionism has morphed into Israeli but it didn't start that way. I'm with you on Texas as I was natural born. If they would secede I would go home in a heart beat. Cheers.
I saw this picture of palestine's rocket attack the reason for the Israeli's attacking Gaza.
http://rense.com/1.imagesH/deviz.jpg
And then I watched this video of palestinians in gaza after the attack.
http://www.thecrowhouse.com/gaza.html
(warning, video above is extremely graphic)
Posted 01/05/09 02:20 AM danielvalley Bangkok, Thailand
Paul ends with talk about constitutional observation....why isnt he jumping up and down everyday about Barry Obamas legitimacy??????
We are not going to fight iran...as Webster Tarpley says we will need to use iran and the whole of the middle east as a cats paw against Russia and to encircle china. Why do you think china bought 4000 metric tons of gold ......to finance its military thats right russia too has bought tons off the market thinking we may see them use it to back thier curreny . Lets take a look at pakistan and its relationship with china and how oil and gas is offloaded in a bay of pakistan to a direct route into china...the disruption of minerals and what not from africa to china.....come on somali pirates cant be this successful in this day and age.
Friends the bush doctrine is over we are now in the barry obama regime and all you need to do is look at his advisors namely Zbigniew Brzezinski and Paul Volcker.Carter's Secretary of State Cyrus Vance and National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski paid close attention to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Diplomatic communications between Israel and Egypt increased significantly after the Yom Kippur War and the Carter administration felt that the time was right for comprehensive solution to the conflict. come on people actions speak louder than blogs................................... Urgent – Write Letters to Supreme Court Justices
Case of Berg vs. Obama, U.S.S.C. Case No. 08-570, in the U.S. Supreme Court has been scheduled for two [2] Conferences [January 9th and 16th, 2009].
The Justices of the Supreme Court will read letters sent to them. Let them know how important it is for them to hear our case; how “standing” is important on the issue of Obama’s qualifications; how we are headed for a “Constitutional crisis” if Obama’s qualifications are not resolved; how important it is to follow “our Constitution;” and how Obama’s records: his original ‘vault’ birth certificate, immigration records when he as Barry Soetoro [adopted in Indonesia] returned to Hawaii in 1971, if any, and any change of name Court records are necessary as Obama might be an illegal alien, not only not qualified to be President, but a fraud as U.S. Senator from Illinois.
Write one [1] letter to the nine Justices of the United States Supreme Court (names are listed below), make nine [9] copies and put them in nine [9] separate envelopes, addressed to each Justice, and then place them into one [1] manila envelope and mail to:
U.S. Supreme Court
1 First Street, N.E
Washington, D.C. 20543
Supreme Court Justices
Chief Justice John Roberts
Associate Justices:
Samuel A. Alito
Clarence Thomas
Antonin Scalia
Anthony M. Kennedy
David H. Souter
John Paul Stevens
Stephen G. Breyer
Ruth Bader Ginsberg
Note: Any communications received by the U.S. Supreme Court via e-mail or fax are thrown away. The U.S. Supreme Court will not take telephone messages for the Justices. All communications to the U.S. Supreme Court must be done in writing and sent to them by way of U.S. mail, UPS, Federal Express, etc.
DO IT!!!! Dont just sit there this is a real oppurtunity to do something real people.
Posted 01/05/09 02:39 AM Matt875 Monroe Township, NJ
Right on point Dr Paul! We need to stop giving Israel OUR tax dollars. We need to STOP spending all THIS money. We must all watch out for this "Global Bank" idea. We dont want a "Global Bank" or "Global Government."
It's not our place to argue who is guilty or innocent; both sides are represented here, and we can all see that both sides have their grievances.
WHAT IS our responsibility is our own government. Can the U.S. claim innocence or the moral high ground when we have played a huge part by arming Israel? This is like strapping razor blades on a fighting cock's feet, putting them in an enclosure with another rooster and then sitting back to enjoy the show as if it were a natural process.
As U.S. citizens we do have a moral obligation to act to end U.S. complicity in this violence. Righteous indignation is a virtue, inaction and apathy in the face of injustice is a sin.
"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."
-- Dante
This is the time to publicly express outrage at our own government's actions, not sit idly by and say nothing.
Posted 01/05/09 05:38 AM danielvalley Bangkok, Thailand
it seems we have lost focus here....lets fix our situation before we look across the ocean shall we.First and foremost we need to ensure we are following the constitution............YES?????
Urgent – Write Letters to Supreme Court Justices
Case of Berg vs. Obama, U.S.S.C. Case No. 08-570, in the U.S. Supreme Court has been scheduled for two [2] Conferences [January 9th and 16th, 2009].
The Justices of the Supreme Court will read letters sent to them. Let them know how important it is for them to hear our case; how “standing” is important on the issue of Obama’s qualifications; how we are headed for a “Constitutional crisis” if Obama’s qualifications are not resolved; how important it is to follow “our Constitution;” and how Obama’s records: his original ‘vault’ birth certificate, immigration records when he as Barry Soetoro [adopted in Indonesia] returned to Hawaii in 1971, if any, and any change of name Court records are necessary as Obama might be an illegal alien, not only not qualified to be President, but a fraud as U.S. Senator from Illinois.
Write one [1] letter to the nine Justices of the United States Supreme Court (names are listed below), make nine [9] copies and put them in nine [9] separate envelopes, addressed to each Justice, and then place them into one [1] manila envelope and mail to:
U.S. Supreme Court
1 First Street, N.E
Washington, D.C. 20543
Supreme Court Justices
Chief Justice John Roberts
Associate Justices:
Samuel A. Alito
Clarence Thomas
Antonin Scalia
Anthony M. Kennedy
David H. Souter
John Paul Stevens
Stephen G. Breyer
Ruth Bader Ginsberg
Note: Any communications received by the U.S. Supreme Court via e-mail or fax are thrown away. The U.S. Supreme Court will not take telephone messages for the Justices. All communications to the U.S. Supreme Court must be done in writing and sent to them by way of U.S. mail, UPS, Federal Express, etc.
Posted 01/05/09 06:00 AM danielvalley Bangkok, Thailand
Look at what this douchbag thinks
Pat Robertson, founder of the Christian Broadcasting Network, announced at his staff's annual prayer retreat that God told him Americans would embrace socialism in 2009 "in order to relieve their pain" and that the economy would rebound under an Obama administration.
"The Lord said the economy of your nation will recover," Robertson told a group assembled at Founders Inn on the campus of Regent University in Virginia Beach, Va., a university Robertson founded.
Robertson said God also declared, "The steps taken will lead to a dramatic increase in the power of government. The people will welcome socialism in order to relieve their pain. Nothing will stand in the way of a plan by Obama to restructure the economy in the same fashion as the New Deal in the '30s."
In a follow-up interview he granted to Terry Meeuwsen, his co-host on CBN's The 700 Club, Robertson added, "It will be the largest transfer of power to Washington since the '30s. But people are willing to accept it because the pain has been so bad."
In a CBN-produced video clip containing both the predictions and the interview, Meeuwsen points out that Robertson has been right on his predictions before. At the beginning of 2008, for example, Robertson correctly predicted the year would include a world-wide recession, a stock market crash, oil hitting $150 (it hit $147) per barrel, and gold topping $1000 an ounce, which it did in March 2008.
Posted 01/05/09 06:01 AM danielvalley Bangkok, Thailand
How about some more good news....so to speak
Police look to hack citizens' home PCs
'Very intrusive powers – as intrusive as someone busting down your door'
----------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------
Posted: January 04, 2009
8:56 pm Eastern
Police and state intelligence agencies from several countries may soon be working together to secretly hack into private citizens' personal computers without their knowledge and without a warrant.
According to a London Times report, the police hacking process, called "remote searching," enables law enforcement to gather information from e-mails, instant messages and Web browsers, even while hundreds of miles away.
Furthermore, the Times reports, a new edict by the European Union's council of ministers in Brussels has paved the way for international law enforcement agencies to begin remote searching and sharing the information with each other. According to the Times, the United Kingdom's Home Office, the nation's lead government department for immigration, drugs and counter-terrorism enforcement, has already quietly adopted a plan that would enable French, German and other European Union police forces to request remote searching be done on UK citizens' computers.
Who might be watching you without you knowing it? Get "Spychips" and see how major corporations and government are planning to track your every move!
The Home Office's plan has drawn immediate protest.
"These are very intrusive powers – as intrusive as someone busting down your door and coming into your home," said Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, a British civil liberties and human rights group.
"The public will want this to be controlled by new legislation and judicial authorization," Chakrabarti told the Times. "Without those safeguards it's a devastating blow to any notion of personal privacy."
(Story continues below)
According to the report, a remote search can be granted if a senior police officer believes it is necessary to detect a serious crime, and unlike searching a suspect's home, a remote search does not require a warrant under Home Office policy.
Richard Clayton, a researcher at the University of Cambridge's Computer Laboratory, told the Times that remote searches had been possible since 1994, but usually involved covertly breaking into a suspect's home to access the computer. By installing a key-logging device on the computer, police could track the suspect's every keystroke.
"It's just like putting a secret camera in someone's living room," Clayton said.
A spokesperson for the UK's Association of Chief Police Officers told the Times that hacking into private citizens' computers is sometimes necessary in investigating cybercrimes such as child pornography, identity theft and terrorism.
Further, the ACPO spokesperson said, the surveillance is directed under the UK's Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, a law passed in 2000 governing the interception and disclosure of communications.
To authorize remote searching, the ACPO spokesperson said, "The officer giving it must believe that when it is given it is necessary to prevent or detect serious crime and [the] action is proportionate to what it seeks to achieve."
Posted 01/05/09 06:13 AM danielvalley Bangkok, Thailand
As a Jewish American, I often encounter arguments that Dr. Paul is an Anti-Semite. While I know that this could not be further from the truth, many Jews are offended by his non-interventionist approach. This stems from the fact that most Jews to the left, and thus believe very much in foreign aid and intervention.
What everyone and Jews especially need to understand is that standing in support of Israel and a policy of noninterventionism are not mutually exclusive. America should NOT be involved in the Israel-Palestinian conflict, nor any FOREIGN conflict.
Many of the Arab nations have made their feelings about the Jews very clear, and this does not stem from a “Jewish Occupation,” The land of Israel was sparsely populated before independence in 1948, and most of its Muslim inhabitants are refugees from other oppressive Arab regimes. Israel is a land of refugees, and one to which people of every faith have a right. It is in this case, however, that one group is trying to deny another group their right to exist, and thus many American members of those respective groups feel very passionately about the issue. That does not make it America’s responsibility. G-d sustained the Jewish people for thousands of years against countless enemies, long before American intervention existed. As a Jew I pray that he will continue to do so, but as an American I know we must stay out of it.
GusCo, thanks for that comment. As a Christian American I have noticed that you cannot even touch the subject of Israel without the knee jerk accusation of being Anti-Semite. And, that accusation often comes more from Christians who hold a false view of Israel than it does from modern Jews.
Posted 01/05/09 09:53 AM ytc4LIBERTY North Bend, OR
I have a question for somebody who knows international law / UN bylaws.
If United States defaults and disintegrates, will it lose the veto power at the United Nations Security Council?
Just curious.
-y
Posted 01/05/09 09:59 AM WarIsARacket Boynton Beach, FL
I've read all of these, and the winning post goes to Heather D. Thanks Heather!
Bill,
I work in a place which affords me the opportunity to speak to many other Jewish people about c4l, you wouldn’t believe how many of them, most very affluent well educated people, have already dismissed Dr. Paul as an Anti-Semite. It is disgraceful. When I argue his case they look at me like I am whatever you would call the Jewish equivalent of an “Uncle Tom.”
I'd like to add...
G-d is the defender of Israel, America is not….
Those who still do not understand why we were attacked on 9/11 need only to look at what is going on in Gaza, for which the US is being blamed as much as Israel. Israel is using US-supplied weapons and for that simple fact Islamic zealots will see it as a US attack. The US must end its financial and armament support to Israel, eject all Israeli lobbyists and keep its mouth shut on Middle East affairs. The US-Israel entanglement is detrimental to the sovereignty of both the US and Israel. Simply saying things such as "Israel has a right to defend itself" in regards to this situation (as many here and George Bush have done) is an endorsement of Israel's actions and a misstep in foreign policy.
you say:
"Those who still do not understand why we were attacked on 9/11 need only to look at what is going on in Gaza"
That's just B.S! Bin Laden didn't give a crap about the Palestinians. His movement was never about the palestinians! He only started mentioning the Palestinians after the 9/11 attacks because he realized it was politically beneficial to him.
Figuratively, of course. We installed military bases in holy lands, bombed, blocked trade and installed puppet governments in Arab countries. We got 9/11. Israel has blockaded Palestine, controlled their resources and assassinated their elected officials. Palestine has launched rockets and suicide bombing attacks in return. It's called blowback. Hamas is just as innocent in its actions/reactions as Al Qaeda and Israel is just as innocent in it's policy toward Palestine as the US's towards the middle east leading up to 9/11. May I suggest the writings of Michael Scheuer and Chalmers Johnson. Sorry, no B.S. here.
and yes, you are right, there aren't many Wahhabi links in Palestine and Bin Laden, et al. only use Palestine politically. I'm not real sure on the amount of Islamic Brotherhood in Palestine. Of course this is all supposed upon the argument that Bin Laden and other Al Qaeda members are Wahhabi - which still goes on. The one thing I don't understand is that Iran (Shiite) is suggested to be helping some of these Sunni groups. My impression has always been that the extremist Sunni groups hate the Shiites even more than Westerners - evident in brawls that break out during Hajj.
Posted 01/05/09 12:50 PM Alan Burton Ormond Beach, FL
"Palestine Peace Not Apartheid", by President Jimmy Carter is a good book to read about the Gaza situation. The detail President Carter provides with the Palestinian and Israeli conflict adds understanding to the existing conflict in Gaza. What is the status of Palestinians as citizens and what legal rights do they have under what set of laws?
Posted 01/05/09 1:02 PM Alan Burton Ormond Beach, FL
"Palestine Peace Not Apartheid", by President Jimmy Carter is a good book to read about the Gaza situation. The detail President Carter provides with the Palestinian and Israeli conflict adds understanding to the existing conflict in Gaza. What is the status of Palestinians as citizens and what legal rights do they have under what set of laws?
All right, let's put that "claim" to the test. I specifically rememeber a few years ago, shimon peres (I believe he is Israel's president today), stating that Israel has never targeted "elected" officials. I will gamble that your statement is false, but I could be wrong.
Give me one example of an "elected" official Israel has assasinated.
Why do you ignore my general argument and go for a red-herring logical fallacy in regard to political assassinations? I’ll bite. Israel dropped a bomb on Nizar Rayan's house, an ELECTED Hamas official who was not a combatant carrying out a rocket attack, but rather at his home with his family. But they're "terrorists" and he strapped a bomb to his son so that doesn't count. He is still a representative of the people in the West Bank. Let's not forget the many PLO (recognized by Arab League as the legitimate authority) officials that have been killed or attempted to be killed from Abu Jihad to the many officials taken out in the intifadas. Political assassinations have been given up by most countries (except the figurative catch-them-in-a-sex-scandal “political assassination”), yet Israel continues its long history of killing key political figures. I read "Tower of Babble: How the United Nations Has Fueled Global Chaos" by Dore Gold - Sharon's advisor - and considered his arguments that all these Palestinian authorities are terrorists and so forth. This is erroneous, as any Palestinian leader could use the same empty argument of safety and oppression and call Israel's leaders terrorists. It all results in the same blowback – more fighting, more extremists, less safety for all. Hamas and Israel share in their flawed policy – as neither are securing their citizens in the long run. Perhaps you are under the impression that my arguments are against Israel? My concerns are for the prolonged safety of Israelis and Palestinians.
Posted 01/20/09 11:34 PM Thelastrounder Santa Clarita, CA
I came to this discussion late, but I just want to respond to the statement made that Israel is just retaliating to Rocket Fire. It is now a proven fact that Israel broke the truce on Nov. 4th by killing six Hamas members. Before this, even though Israel had a grueling, or "Soul Crushing" as John Stewart put it, Emargo/Seige of Gaza, where many Palestinians died from lack of medical care and Mal-nourishment, Hamas stuck to the truce and not one rocket was fired into Israel by Hamas. Why now would Hamas agree to a cease-fire if Israel has proven its unwillingness to stick to it.
This Article written by John Mearsheimer an American professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago explains the current situation in Gaza very clearly.
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